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Wednesday, May 26, 2010

The Last (Gay) Waltz

This is it...after this I am finished arguing on the Rockin Apologists blog that Gays are not mentally ill individuals who deserve to be discriminated against. While I love a good argument as much as the next guy, you do reach a point where it all becomes so very clear that no one is really listening, and in the final analysis I do this for fun...not to save souls, or spread the "my way or the highway" gospel. Plus, in my case, I can only devote so much of my free time (what little there is) to the whole blogging endeavor and I've missed out on other topics.

You can link to the discussion HERE. I'm just going to cut and paste the offending passages in this blog (in italic).

Enough excuses. This is my Last (Gay) Waltz.


In (final) response to your comments JD...

Comment - Are you actually trying to equate "hair growth" with "average life expectancy" and "higher incidences of mental health disorders"? Simply stunning.

No JD, the part about "hair growth" was an attempt at humor. I believe that laughter is a gift from God. Try it. Besides, quoting testimonials about Gay conversion proves nothing...and more on testimonials in a few.

Comment - Then neither alcoholics nor adulterers should be either? I'm just trying to see if youre consistent in your rejection of Biblical claims or if you are just cherry-picking and choosing the Gospel you wish to live by.

If you mean by "rejection of Biblical claims" that I reject the notion that homosexuals should be put to death, then yes, you are correct. As for cherry-picking, I think you are just as guilty (the whole "this only applied before, but this applied now" stuff). As for the "Gospel I wish to live by" I suggest that if you are interested in knowing then I suggest you ask...otherwise your statement sounds like nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction to the fact that I've pointed out inconsistencies in your arguments.

Comment - Youre only obfuscating the matter. The comparison here is between homosexuals and heterosexuals. Again, statisticaly speaking, is anything that I wrote above concerning comparisons with mental illness and life expectancies between the two groups inaccurate?

Me obfuscating? I think you are my friend, as Ive answered this before...but for the last time here goes...I have no doubt that homosexuals may suffer from a greater degree of mental illness. If all people who were left handed were told that they were engaged in left-handed sin...if there was a book that said that being left-handed was punishable by death...that being left-handed was wrong and needed to be cured...OF COURSE more left-handed people would suffer from various forms of mental illness. Now of course some homosexuals are well adjusted and some suffer from mental illness for reasons outside of their sexuality, but being a 3% minority where a portion of the remaining 97% believe that you are defective takes a toll.

Comment - And neither are car accidents and drowning incidences. None of which explains why homosexuals live considerably shorter lives than heterosexuals while having considerably higher rates of mental health issues. Would you care to either..

A) Disprove statistically that this is not the case? Or..
B) Care to speculate as to why this may be the case?

I already have...twice now.

Comment - Really? In what way? Is it the case that the countless testimonies from former homosexuals about completely changed lives that could be provided by such ministries are in some way "invalid"? If so, please explain why.

Testimonials???? TESTIMONIALS???? Are you serious???????????
There are entire areas of science and business where testimonials are not even allowed. Did you know that folks working in the securities industry are BARRED from using testimonials when dealing with customers? Do you think that testimonials are considered to be valid proof when a drug needs to be approved by the FDA? (Hint: No). What's more, for every "Exodus cured me" testimonial, do you not think that there are testimonials where someone says "Exodus is crap"? Please, save the testimonials for vitamin commercials and crap they sell on QVC, as the very concept doesn't belong in a serious discussion. It's the stuff of hucksters and used-car salesmen.

Comment - And who are they SGA? I don't think that even such a fringe group as the Westboro Baptist Church is calling for the stoning to death of gays. Even if they are, they have at most, what? 50-60 members?

The reference is to people that believe in a strict literal interpretation of the Bible. Call me a fool for logic, but if someone believes in a "strict literal interpretation of an error-free, divinely inspired word of God", then that seems to negate the actual interpretation of the Bible...why interpret something if it is error free? The very word "interpret" seems to imply that the Bible is somehow unclear or in need of clarification. In fact, if the passage in Leviticus doesn't apply now...and the Bible is 100% true...wouldn't the Bible come out and specifically say that some of it's teachings no longer apply? The fact is that the Bible has no such "no longer applies" made that part up JD. Making something up in the Bible runs counter to the belief systems of several mainstream demoninations, including...

Southern Baptists (From "It is a perfect treasure of divine instruction. It has God for its author, salvation for its end, and truth, without any mixture of error, for its matter. Therefore, all Scripture is totally true and trustworthy." [I don't see any "except for ____" in that statement.]

Assemblies of God (from
"The Scriptures, both the Old and New Testaments, are verbally inspired of God and are the revelation of God to man, the infallible, authoritative rule of faith and conduct." [I don't see any "except for ____" in that statement.]

Foursquare Church (from ): "We believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God: true, immutable, steadfast, and unchangeable" [Immutable means "unchangeable" in it was right during the time of Leviticus and it is right now.]

I could go on, but this is growing tiring; I will say though that I personally am fine with interpreting the Bible..even your interpreting the Bible. My point is though that not everyone else is...and I'm not referring the the Wackos of Westboro either. Ya can't have it both ways, claiming that the Bible is always true, but that it also needs to tweaked for modern times.

One final point: you claim that homosexuality is a mental illness. According to the authorities on mental illness, the American Psychiatric Association, it is not. In fact in December of 1973 they determined that it is not a
pathological psychiatric condition. Reference HERE.

Okay, that's it. I'm done. I know there are points remaining, but too bad. Pointing fingers at others...claiming that they are mentally ill...advocating that it's okay to discriminate against simply wrong. If that's what you call my "Gospel", then so be it.


J Curtis said...

Comment - And neither are car accidents and drowning incidences. None of which explains why homosexuals live considerably shorter lives than heterosexuals while having considerably higher rates of mental health issues. Would you care to either..

A) Disprove statistically that this is not the case? Or..
B) Care to speculate as to why this may be the case?

I already have...twice now.


Stephen Albert said...

With all due respect, I am officially removing myself from your vortex JD (that's the "Last" part). However...just to break my own rule...I will say that I have addressed the comment about a greater incidence of mental illness...twice. Doing so a third time would make ME mentally ill. If you can't find it...or choose to not want to read it...that's okay. I'm not out to convince you of anything; my point in this whole mess is that your advocating FOR discrimination against someone because of their sexuality is wrong, and I've been taught that when you see something wrong, you need to at least point it out.

Consider this to be my coda on this topic.

NOW I have officially left your vortex.

The Catholic Apologist said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Catholic Apologist said...

Sorry about that deleted comment thing--

I am reasonably certain I myself never claimed homosexuals deserve to be discriminated against- in fact I think I argued the oppisite.

If I did not make that clear I apologize. Let me fix that right now: The Church teaches that homosexuals are persons of dignity being created in the image and likeness of God. There is NEVER justification for any kind of discrimination against them.

Thanks for the good discussion fellows! I pretty much stayed out of it as you can see.

Stephen Albert said... the end, I think all people with a conscience want the same thing.

J Curtis said...

I will say that I have addressed the comment about a greater incidence of mental illness...twice

With all due respect, you certainly DID NOT address it in any way at all Steve.

You stated, quote...

"I could Google that, but I'm sure you could as well. Let's examine this though a little further..." and then you went on to make your inane "purple people" remark.

While we have countless examples of people who used to be gay and no longer are, I would like you to cite one instance of someone who once was black and now no longer is. If you can demonstrate that, then I concede the point.

Furthermore you stated "you are not snookering me into a debate about whether or not homosexuality is healthy, good, promotes healthy hair growth" as if there has ever been a hair tonic on the market that would add 15-20 years to your life expectancy while homosexuality would, statistically speaking, rob you of those years. Again, if you could demonstrate the correlation between dramatically lower life expectancies and a shiny, brilliant sheen on one's hair, I concede the point.

I'm assuming that you don't even have a valid point, nevermind a good counter-argument, as to why gays live much shorter lives and are much more prone to mental health issues as being a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy of the Bible's admonihion against such behaviour.